Breaking into Cybersecurity - Lundon Livingston

Christophe Foulon: 00:00:42

Welcome to another episode of Breaking Into Cybersecurity,

2

: 00:00:45

where we talk to cybersecurity

professionals that have broken into

3

: 00:00:49

the field within the past five years.

4

: 00:00:51

Before we get started, the idea of

this show is to share this with other

5

: 00:00:56

cybersecurity professionals so that we can

share these tips and tricks for others.

6

: 00:01:00

Looking to break into the field.

7

: 00:01:02

Today's guest, London Livingston will

be sharing his path into cybersecurity

8

: 00:01:08

and all the tips, drip and all

the tips, tricks, and struggles

9

: 00:01:12

along the way, as well as any final

advice that he has for you, London.

10

: 00:01:18

You wanna tell our audience a

little bit about your background?

11

: 00:01:21

Lundon Livingston: Yes.

12

: 00:01:21

Hi Chris and thanks for

having me on your podcast.

13

: 00:01:24

Cybersecurity has always been something

that I've wanted to jump into and

14

: 00:01:30

I think back as I was, working on

a help desk, over, over 10 years

15

: 00:01:34

ago and going to college at the

same time, taking evening courses.

16

: 00:01:39

There were classes that I wanted to

take, but I had already made a sacrifice

17

: 00:01:44

to take, courses in the mornings

and some courses in the evening.

18

: 00:01:48

I just didn't have the time to take

those cybersecurity classes at the time.

19

: 00:01:54

Fast forward to this time.

20

: 00:01:57

Now, I realize I didn't have to wait

to take cybersecurity courses that

21

: 00:02:03

was available through the college.

22

: 00:02:06

I didn't realize the amount of

resources and courses and self studying

23

: 00:02:11

options that were available to.

24

: 00:02:14

Once I broke out of that mindset, I

began doing self-studying and doing

25

: 00:02:19

researching and understanding, what was

out there in cybersecurity for me to do.

26

: 00:02:25

And ultimately what allowed me to

break that barrier and to jump into

27

: 00:02:29

cybersecurity was when I, started,

taking, some short bootcamp courses

28

: 00:02:35

as well as I took a scholarship Sans

Academy through Sans Thes Institute.

29

: 00:02:40

To me as being a graduate

of A-H-B-C-U College.

30

: 00:02:44

So I took about, there were

three certifications that I

31

: 00:02:49

took and I learned so much.

32

: 00:02:52

And also along with that were the

opportunities through throughout

33

: 00:02:56

school opportunities, that

were provided to some of the

34

: 00:03:00

organizations to learn technologies.

35

: 00:03:03

And I think that allowed me to.

36

: 00:03:05

Bridge that gap and to get a better

understanding of which path and which

37

: 00:03:09

way I wanted to go in cybersecurity.

38

: 00:03:11

Christophe Foulon: So thinking about

which path and where you wanted to go

39

: 00:03:16

in cybersecurity, what did you do to

discover which path you wanted to go?

40

: 00:03:21

How did you discover what you wanted to

do amongst all ? The Passa or available.

41

: 00:03:26

Lundon Livingston: Okay.

42

: 00:03:26

So I took some time to

self-reflect on what I knew I.

43

: 00:03:32

And the experiences that I've had as a

help desk analyst, a network technician,

44

: 00:03:38

a system administrator technical support

specialist, and I realized there was a lot

45

: 00:03:43

of alignment and my experience based on IT

operations monitoring doing command line.

46

: 00:03:51

Working with the database and a lot of

technical support root cause analysis.

47

: 00:03:57

So I started reaching out and networking

with people like you and other

48

: 00:04:01

individuals that are in cybersecurity to

understand, what it is that they're doing.

49

: 00:04:06

Asking them questions like,

Hey, what did you learn?

50

: 00:04:10

What courses did you and not was?

51

: 00:04:13

It wasn't that I was trying to copy

them, but I was just trying to figure

52

: 00:04:17

out where , what was there for me to

do based on the skills that I had.

53

: 00:04:22

Based it up on what I knew and how I

could grow on the skills that I did know.

54

: 00:04:28

And it came down to different tools.

55

: 00:04:31

Ultimately the root was the mindset.

56

: 00:04:33

And not only that was teaching.

57

: 00:04:36

I saw a lot of leaders

actually taught courses.

58

: 00:04:39

They taught, not necessarily just courses,

but they taught and provided assistance

59

: 00:04:44

with certifications with particular tools.

60

: 00:04:47

For example, like Splunk and

some some other monitoring tools.

61

: 00:04:52

Individuals that I worked with IBM

were very smart with new Relic.

62

: 00:04:57

It was a monitoring team, a

monitoring tool that allowed you

63

: 00:05:00

to monitor your infrastructure.

64

: 00:05:02

Christophe Foulon: I love that

you took the time and you.

65

: 00:05:04

Understood the mindset.

66

: 00:05:05

that's Something that I haven't heard

a lot of people say right off the

67

: 00:05:10

bat, that usually that a lot later.

68

: 00:05:13

Were you already in an

IT role at this time?

69

: 00:05:16

.

Lundon Livingston: Yes, I was in multiple IT roles.

70

: 00:05:20

I sat on a help desk for about five

years, and I was told, London, in

71

: 00:05:25

order for you to move up to the next

level to be a system administrator,

72

: 00:05:29

you need to get these certifications.

73

: 00:05:30

And one of those certifications

was a Linux plus.

74

: 00:05:32

They also said I didn't have a

degree, so I went back to school.

75

: 00:05:36

I got the associate's degree and

I also achieved the Lennox Plus

76

: 00:05:39

compt Linux plus certifications.

77

: 00:05:41

And it still didn't allow me to move up.

78

: 00:05:44

Five years went by and, I felt like

it was a total waste, and it was very

79

: 00:05:50

disappointing to achieve something I.

80

: 00:05:54

And be told that, Hey, this is

what you need, from leadership and

81

: 00:05:59

not being able to move forward.

82

: 00:06:00

So that's when I started getting a

better mindset and growing my, my, my

83

: 00:06:06

character seeking personal development,

how I can be a better person, with

84

: 00:06:10

my communication skills and how I can

help others and network with others.

85

: 00:06:15

And that's what helped me more and more.

86

: 00:06:17

Christophe Foulon: I Love that.

87

: 00:06:18

Oftentimes I see in this industry

that when you ask someone for advice,

88

: 00:06:22

everyone will have different advice.

89

: 00:06:24

Everyone will give you different tips.

90

: 00:06:26

Everyone will mention different certs, and

yeah you might feel disappointed when you

91

: 00:06:31

go out and you do that, especially if it's

your leader telling you that, and then

92

: 00:06:36

they don't hold up on their promise, but.

93

: 00:06:38

The important thing that, that

you mentioned there is to hold on

94

: 00:06:42

to that mindset that everything

wasn't done for nothing.

95

: 00:06:46

That, that did learn along the way.

96

: 00:06:49

You did improve your skills along the way.

97

: 00:06:51

Now it's time to just

integrate those skills into.

98

: 00:06:54

The way that you do things so that

you weren't doing the same things

99

: 00:06:57

that you were doing five years ago.

100

: 00:06:59

you you might be in the same role, but

you're working on different things.

101

: 00:07:02

You're working on more advanced things.

102

: 00:07:05

Now let's pivot a little bit

to, you decided that help desk

103

: 00:07:10

wasn't the right thing for you.

104

: 00:07:12

How did you decide what in

cybersecurity you wanted to do?

105

: 00:07:16

Lundon Livingston: I forgot

to mention this earlier in our

106

: 00:07:19

conversation, and you asked me how

did I, get into cybersecurity and.

107

: 00:07:23

Led me to it.

108

: 00:07:24

I also started teaching

a cybersecurity course.

109

: 00:07:28

I was a assistant I forgot

the title, but I was a teaching

110

: 00:07:32

assistant for cybersecurity.

111

: 00:07:33

And I forgot the question, Chris.

112

: 00:07:36

Christophe Foulon: Okay.

113

: 00:07:37

so How did you decide what

role in cybersecurity that

114

: 00:07:41

you're interested in doing?

115

: 00:07:43

Lundon Livingston: Okay, so the role

that interests me was cybersecurity

116

: 00:07:48

risk management, and it examinations

that allowed me to explore.

117

: 00:07:56

Like everything cybersecurity, because

in cybersecurity risk management, it

118

: 00:08:00

allows me to take a deeper dive and see

the entire cybersecurity universe from

119

: 00:08:07

auditing, management's way of leading

their teams, how they select their teams,

120

: 00:08:12

what type of training they have, as well

as how often they update their systems.

121

: 00:08:19

How they handle vulnerability and

penetration tests, as well as how

122

: 00:08:24

provide training, ongoing training to

their employees that kind of opened my

123

: 00:08:30

eye and allowed me more discoveries.

124

: 00:08:33

Christophe Foulon: So you started to see

that you like this role, and I'm guessing

125

: 00:08:36

at this time you were potentially in

another role in your current IT role.

126

: 00:08:41

How did you go about getting

that cybersecurity role?

127

: 00:08:45

Like all the dirty details, like

how many roles you applied for,

128

: 00:08:48

what did you do, all those details.

129

: 00:08:52

Lundon Livingston: Okay.

130

: 00:08:52

I probably applied for at least maybe

50 to a hundred different roles.

131

: 00:08:57

And remember my initial role was a

cybersecurity teaching assistant.

132

: 00:09:02

However, that was part-time and.

133

: 00:09:04

It took me to reach out to someone to

get coaching and the young lady provided

134

: 00:09:10

coaching for me, helped me understand

the language and, told me some things I

135

: 00:09:15

needed to research to better understand

how to pursue this opportunity.

136

: 00:09:19

I Think that's what ultimately

led me to that role.

137

: 00:09:22

It wasn't as painful from the

rejections because I've known to

138

: 00:09:26

receive rejections from the past,

when I was looking for a help desk

139

: 00:09:29

role or a networking support role.

140

: 00:09:32

So the rejections, that's.

141

: 00:09:35

I think it took me about six

months to actually land this road

142

: 00:09:38

to interview and to be onboarded.

143

: 00:09:41

And then I was finally

brought onto the board.

144

: 00:09:44

Christophe Foulon: So was this role?

145

: 00:09:46

That, that you can try to trace back to

account of just applying to those 50 roles

146

: 00:09:53

or were there, was there some networking

involved, some connections involved

147

: 00:09:58

that, that help you get to the, in front

of the hiring manager or the recruiter?

148

: 00:10:05

Lundon Livingston: So there

wasn't any specific networking

149

: 00:10:09

internally from the organization?

150

: 00:10:11

I think the only thing that really helped

me was I believe my past experiences,

151

: 00:10:16

my, resume on, how I explain, what I did,

what I've accomplished, my achievements.

152

: 00:10:23

I think that was the most part.

153

: 00:10:25

But, prior to getting the opportunity,

I believe that coaching allowed me to

154

: 00:10:31

have the right wording in my resume that.

155

: 00:10:34

Was aligned with my skillset,

my personality, and my character

156

: 00:10:40

that originally allowed them

to select me for the interview.

157

: 00:10:44

Christophe Foulon: So you'd

say this was a role that you.

158

: 00:10:46

Only applied via the

applicant tracking system for

159

: 00:10:48

Lundon Livingston: So there,

there were multiple roles.

160

: 00:10:51

I've been applying for the,

almost the last 10 years.

161

: 00:10:55

So over time.

162

: 00:10:56

Last time I checked, I think

it was over 300 applications

163

: 00:10:59

from this one organization.

164

: 00:11:01

Christophe Foulon: Wow.

165

: 00:11:01

Talk about

166

: 00:11:02

Okay.

167

: 00:11:02

This gets interesting,

168

: 00:11:04

Lundon Livingston: so ever since I grad,

every since I was in undergrad school

169

: 00:11:09

in 2010 and I graduated from WINS Salem

State in: 2012

170

: 00:11:15

A student, and most students may not

realize that when you're in school,

171

: 00:11:19

there are programs out there that are

available for college students and recent

172

: 00:11:24

graduates, as well as other programs,

whether you're in a bootcamp or, as long

173

: 00:11:28

as it's education, if you're a student,

I try to take advantage of that for the

174

: 00:11:32

long period of time I was in, in school.

175

: 00:11:34

. Christophe Foulon: Okay, so what was

this first role and what were, how

176

: 00:11:37

was it like onboarding to this first

role coming from an IT background?

177

: 00:11:42

Lundon Livingston: Okay, so this

first role it was a it examiner

178

: 00:11:46

it it's a federal government role.

179

: 00:11:48

I really don't wanna share the

actual name just for privacy.

180

: 00:11:52

And basically.

181

: 00:11:54

The job had like pretty much

everything that I've been doing

182

: 00:11:58

and, things that I wanted to do.

183

: 00:12:00

So I was able to express so it, with it

auditing cybersecurity risk management.

184

: 00:12:07

A lot of nist guidelines and standards

ff IEC for, financial regulations.

185

: 00:12:13

How financial institutions are audited

to make sure they have systems in

186

: 00:12:18

place to prevent attacks or to.

187

: 00:12:23

Christophe Foulon: Wow.

188

: 00:12:23

So that sounds like a

really interesting role.

189

: 00:12:26

Did you feel that there were any

struggles onboarding to this role?

190

: 00:12:30

Did you feel like you

have to ramp up a lot?

191

: 00:12:32

What was it like?

192

: 00:12:34

Lundon Livingston: Yes I do feel

that there were some struggles

193

: 00:12:36

coming in, into this role.

194

: 00:12:38

As far as adapting to the environment

coming from, working with, some private

195

: 00:12:44

organizations that started up as a

startup or just, in-house, in a technical

196

: 00:12:50

port role, or, because I, I worked

with like IBM and Cisco as a contractor

197

: 00:12:54

and those are larger organizations.

198

: 00:12:56

I came into this opportunity and it was.

199

: 00:12:59

Not necessarily large, but

there was a different approach.

200

: 00:13:03

Everything was based on guidelines and

standards and policies and, it was more

201

: 00:13:08

trying to understand that and, going

by the books of things to be correct.

202

: 00:13:15

And that was like a similar to a

culture shock, it wasn't necessarily

203

: 00:13:19

new, but it was different.

204

: 00:13:21

Christophe Foulon: Okay, let's we're

approaching the end of the show.

205

: 00:13:25

as you advanced give tips for those that

were looking to keep up or any advice

206

: 00:13:31

that you would give them based on your

journey of breaking into cybersecurity.

207

: 00:13:36

Lundon Livingston: Okay so

from my experience, I had

208

: 00:13:38

to know what I want to do.

209

: 00:13:40

I had to figure out what it was

I wanted to do based on what I

210

: 00:13:44

already knew and what I already had.

211

: 00:13:47

And there are technologies out there

that are like the latest and greatest.

212

: 00:13:52

You want to keep up with that and stick

with it, you have to be disciplined.

213

: 00:13:56

You have to have habit.

214

: 00:13:57

Have a habit of, learning about

that particular technology or skill.

215

: 00:14:01

And also I spent a majority

of my time volunteering, which

216

: 00:14:06

I still do till this day.

217

: 00:14:08

I volunteer.

218

: 00:14:10

I also teach part-time an intro

to computer networking course.

219

: 00:14:14

I've taught other courses at

ECPI, Georgia Tech u Charlotte,

220

: 00:14:19

but I've been teaching for the.

221

: 00:14:21

Past four years to allow me to

give back to others, to stay

222

: 00:14:25

active in this community, to

help others to stay engaging.

223

: 00:14:30

And those that that are trying

to get to where I was, I can help

224

: 00:14:34

them just from my experience.

225

: 00:14:36

And also, you gotta have fun.

226

: 00:14:37

For the very first time I

coached a coed soccer team.

227

: 00:14:42

And I had no experience.

228

: 00:14:43

The kids had no experience, but

we both learned that helped improve

229

: 00:14:47

my communication skills, improve

their communication skills, and it

230

: 00:14:52

allowed us all to be a team player.

231

: 00:14:54

I know some, it seems like everything is

cybersecurity, everything is technical,

232

: 00:14:58

but you have to think outside the box

and do what others are not willing to do.

233

: 00:15:04

And for me, that was

volunteering and teaching.

234

: 00:15:07

There, there are gonna be

opportunities to learn.

235

: 00:15:10

You, there, there's so many resources.

236

: 00:15:11

You have YouTube, you

have the public library.

237

: 00:15:15

You have so many people on

LinkedIn that are willing to help.

238

: 00:15:18

Just a matter of communicating

and reaching out.

239

: 00:15:22

Christophe Foulon: Thank you so much

for joining and for highlighting that

240

: 00:15:25

The transferrable skills from both

volunteering and your previous roles are

241

: 00:15:31

highly desirable within cybersecurity,

and you just have to take advantage and

242

: 00:15:36

show how you can bring them over there.

243

: 00:15:39

Again, all thank you for joining us

today on Breaking Into Cybersecurity.

244

: 00:15:43

Please do share this with others.

245

: 00:15:45

Looking to break into the field

because that's how we'll develop the

246

: 00:15:48

cybersecurity professionals of tomorrow.